33 Replies Latest reply on Jul 13, 2011 10:46 AM by sschein

    Long term care insurance

    Marion

      This is a new topic for me - and I'm learning of all the options.   Others may have more experience and give some hints on what to look for in benefits, coverage, etc. - as well as what to avoid.

      Hints would be appreciated. 

        • Re: Long term care insurance
          li_rolemodel

          Long-term care insurance IS a tough one.  My husband and I shopped a long time before settling on one.  And even though we opted for the inflationary clause - I'm pretty certain that IF I ever have to utilize the policy, it won't begin to cover the costs.  Those seem to be going up a lot faster than my coverage!

          I learned two or three years ago that some companies are experimenting with a new type of coverage.  New York Life was the one which contacted me.  You pay up front for a certain amount of long-term care coverage and IF you never use it, the coverage rolls over to an ordinary life insurance policy.  I thought that had some appeal.  I don't have any current information about that sort of plan.

          • Re: Long term care insurance
            magicdeeds
            After going thru the experience of taking care of my mother with only my sister to help and both of us working demanding jobs and having our own family, it was exhausing and very stressful but we managed to keep her at home until she passed.  I said then I would try to keep my children from that struggle and had the opportunity to purchase long term care thru the government system during open enrollment since one of my children is a government employee.  I told my children the insurance is there for when I need someone to take care of me - they hopefully will be able to hire someone who can stay w/me at my home if able or a facility if required, but will free them from the day to day responsibilit and stress.  You can probably never purchase enough to cover all costs, but any help is good.  It gives me some peace of mind.
              • Re: Long term care insurance
                vs_rolemodel
                Hello, magicdeeds.  Thanks for reviving this topic.  My annual LTC premium
                is coming due in a month, and your post has reminded me that it's money well
                spent.  I agree with you that while long-term care expenses can be significantly
                offset by an LTC policy, even the platinum version of same however will most
                likely not cover every contingency.  So I think of my policy as a safeguard
                against total depletion of my assets.

                Best wishes,
                vs_rolemodel
                  • Re: Long term care insurance
                    Rubiosa
                    Yes, my wife and I are strong believers in LTC insurance. Unfortunately TIAA no longer offers this coverage, but they did roll our policies over into MetLife with whom we are well-pleased. Before taking out any insurance policy recommended by AARP, I strongly recommend that you google and discover for yourself that AARP takes in hundreds of millions a year from the insurance industry in return for recommending insurance products. Paul Krugman has written on this and so has President Jimmy Carter.
                      • Re: Long term care insurance
                        chiu
                        We bought the LTC from UNUM.  Every year at renewal time, my husband agonizes over whether to renew.   He feels that the company's correspondence looks unprofessional and he is afraid that it will not honor the contract if we we ever need to use the policy.  We asked our insurance agent to provide some references who have received the policy benefits, but she has not been able to come up one reference and she has been in this business for more than 10 years.  I googled it and saw one satisfactory comments, but many complaints about the company.  I presented the information to the agent.  She said it is normal for insurance companies to receive a lot of complaints.  UNUM has an "AA" rating.  I suppose it is a good  company, but how can one be sure whether it is any good when it comes time to make claims?  Does anyone have experience with UNUM?
                          • Re: Long term care insurance
                            Rubiosa

                            If you're talking about Unum Provident Insurance Company, they're fighting a class action suit charging that they systematically deny claims. Here are fifty or so complaints against them.  TIAA-CREF had LTC for a few years, then handed it off to MetLife. We stayed with MetLife and have been very pleased.

                            http://www.consumeraffairs.com/insurance/unum.html

                    • Re: Long term care insurance
                      Arnie
                      Let me relate a few views on LTC insurance.  About eight years ago my wife and I took out a policy at ages 58 and 61.  Shortly thereafter, she was diagnosed with a frontal temporal lobe dementia and has required institutionalization.  The cost of her care is about $85,000 a year.  The insurance covers about half and our two Social Security checks cover the other half.  Our policy is with Allianz and it one of just a few organizations I have ever dealt with that I can recommend without reservation.  Since her assisted-living residence qualifies for roughly half of the full benefit, the policy is essentially running for ten years (technically five, but the total value of the benefits is what counts so I get double the time).  Meanwhile, the cost-of-living allowance increases the payout every year, and while it pays out, the premium is suspended.  For an investment of less than $10,000 I will be getting back around $500,000.  Anyone who is thinking about not having an LTC policy or is thinking about not renewing one, is either very rich, very poor or very stupid. 
                        • Re: Long term care insurance
                          kath
                          I'm not rich or poor, so I must be stupid. I just cancelled my calPERS LTC because it  doubled in 6 years. I got it at 55, thinking the rates would be lower, but $100/mo turned into $200/mo by 61. My guess is I won't need it till after 80, and at that rate of increase I'll pay $1100/mo. Yes, there was a inflation factor inthe care, but.... I decided I'd leave the thousands put in now rather than more thousands later. It seems there should be some lid on frequency and amount of rise in monthly cost. I'm thinking my house, fully paid for, and investments will be my LTC!!
                            • Re: Long term care insurance
                              jkom51

                              Arnie, thank you for contributing to this discussion. I've participated in several Net discussions on LTC and it's quite hard to convince most folks that a good LTC insurance policy can be worth the money. Most insist they will either never need it or say they can afford to do without it. There are certainly those with sufficient assets who can self-insure. But with the high cost of facility care and home health services, I really wonder if all those people actually do have over $3M of liquid assets (usually considered the minimum net worth for self-insuring LTC).

                              And of course, should both partners need care for any extended period, that would be double the expenditure! Until this country addresses the issue of elderly care in a more comprehensive manner, one has to really ‘crunch the numbers’ to decide whether to self-insure or buy protection.

                              BTW, there is an earlier discussion thread on LTC insurance in the Family & Friends forum titled “Retirement vs nursing home”. In that thread, on August 23rd I did a fairly long post on what some of the considerations should be in selecting a policy. This is NOT the time to depend on your friendly local agent, unless said agent writes a large number of these policies for at least three different LTC insurers. Most agents know relatively little about these policies and have even less information about a company’s historical record on customer service and claims payment.

                              Googling “long term care insurance” will pull up several useful documents. A very good one is a government publication, “Guide to Long Term Care Insurance” at http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/health/ltc/guide.htm.

                              People need to honestly assess their morbidity factors, especially as they reach middle-age. By then it becomes clear what kind of health issues one's elderly relatives have had to face.

                              Unlike kath, we have LTC through CalPERS and are happy with it. They negotiate excellent terms so there are less ‘gotcha’ exclusions. We got our policies in our late 40’s – a good thing too, as my DH suffered a haemorrhagic stroke less than four years later. He would no longer be eligible for affordable rates from any carrier.

                              I expected premiums to increase – any glance at the stats about Boomers living longer and thus probably needing care of some kind, is a leading indicator. Despite this, the amount we pay for the two LTC policies is less than the amount of our earthquake insurance. And with our personal genetic morbidity factors, I’m pretty sure we’re more likely to use the LTC benefits than the earthquake insurance. Therefore, we intend to keep our LTC insurance in force. Licensed facility care is extremely expensive where we live due to high labor costs. The past ten years of total premiums paid wouldn’t even equal the cost of a 6-mo. stay for one of us, let alone both.

                                • Re: Long term care insurance
                                  shepster
                                  jkom51:  Seems to me (quoting your final two sentences): "Licensed facility care is extremely expensive where we live due to high labor costs. The past ten years of total premiums paid wouldn’t even equal the cost of a 6-mo. stay for one of us, let alone both." pose a real conundrum: namely, how can any insurance afford to offer LTC if what you say is true?  As the company would surely be bankrupt in short order even if relatively few of their policy holders go the payout referred to in the final sentence in the quotes above!  Thus there must be something else going on with LTC!
                                    • Re: Long term care insurance
                                      jkom51

                                      shepster: You are confusing a simple consumer "$$ in, $$$ out" budget with a corporate aggregate profit/investment/payout process. For one thing, payments on LTC care are not made in total, they are paid in arrears. Secondly, you may not realize that corporate business has always made much higher ROI than consumers do. Sophisticated trading and lending processes favor big money transactions, and insurance carriers are amongst the biggest players in this game.

                                      Anytime a policyholder dies or terminates a policy without using it, the carrier has not only profited from the premiums, they have profited from the 8-23% annual ROI they have made off those premiums over the years. It is up to the actuaries to decide whether a policy is priced to be profitable, weighed against the number of people who will actually make claims. That percentage is lower than you think, especially with those who are budget-driven and are caught flat-footed by class-wide premium increases.

                                      I worked for a large, well-known insurer for over a decade. When they distributed budget money each year to the separate divisions, every division had to be profitable - and the profit margin was a base plus percentage number. The "base" was 15% - each division had to make more than that, every year. The base number was what the company could earn off investments, on an annualized 20 yr historical basis, without ever writing a new policy of any type. Insurers are required to hold sufficient cash assets to redeem/payout policies, which gives them a large pot of $$$ to leverage out.

                                      It is the same principle by which a pension of $70K annually does not require the employer to actually have the total $70K x 35 yrs life expectancy all in cash, up front. The employer funds an account with a percentage amount that builds over time through investments to fund the pension in perpetuity. Same thing with insurers, that's all.

                                  • Re: Long term care insurance
                                    JaFoo

                                    The problem with LTC insurance (besides unpredictable & substantial rate hikes) is that if you opt for the more affordable plans, you are buying something that most of us don’t want – custodial care in a nursing home!  A growing number of us (baby boomers) are planning investments in elder living that is more to our liking:  elder co-housing.  There’s an organization of  “intentional communities” (the name for communes that have grown up) that may offer  interesting alternatives:  www.ic.org

                                     

                                    Of course, co-care doesn’t work if we are kept alive, but dependent on lots of medical interventions and other services to manage disability. It's not surprising that some of us are questioning modern medicine’s default  of quantity over quality.  If we’re “saved” from a  massive coronary at 72 only to die at age 95 after 10 years of nursing home care for Alzheimer’s, is that a good trade?  I’m healthy and 59, but have a DNR in case I’m offered the blessing of sudden death.  

                                     

                                      • Re: Long term care insurance
                                        kath
                                        That is very interesting and something I know nothing about. I'll do my research now though. Many thanks!
                                        • Re: Long term care insurance
                                          jkom51

                                          >>you are buying something that most of us don’t want – custodial care in a nursing home! >>

                                          No, you are buying Risk Mitigation. It is no different than buying homeowners insurance or auto insurance. You don't buy them in the hopes you'll never make a claim, you buy them to LESSEN YOUR FINANCIAL LIABILITY in case a claim is necessary.

                                          I emphasize this because many people lose sight of why insurance is important. You cannot remove all risk from your life, all you can do is to mitigate the impact of high-risk upon your financial well-being or life estate, IF something happens to you.

                                          You could be lucky and die when and how you want to - my mother did, for which her children were very thankful. But my father did not, nor did most of my DH's family. You can stick your head in the sand and hope nothing bad ever happens to you and your spouse. You may be fortunate enough to have that come true. I personally just don't want to wager what assets my DH and I have accumulated, that we will be 'two of the lucky ones'. If I can use insurance wisely to lessen the risk that disability to one of us will cause financial hardship to the other, then that's what I'm going to do.

                                          Elder co-housing is not going to solve the issue that arises - how do you stay in your home by yourself? Your co-housing site is lovely and idyllic, but the reality is I would prefer to remain around my family and friends in the San Francisco Bay Area, where modest starter homes hit half a million and CCRCs (continuing care retirement communities) require buy-ins of $150K to $450K up-front, with rental costs of $1500-$7K/mo for apartments.

                                          Communes, cooperatives and land trusts don't work here - there was an article last weekend in the local paper on how the Tenants-in-Common concept has been a total failure in our area, due to factors beyond people's control. They work only where land is cheap and zoning codes permit easy development. Many seniors are fortunate to live in such areas, or move to them. We would move away only if we absolutely had to - and therefore have taken the financial steps possible to lessen the risk that we might have to, someday.

                                          There are many senior residences in our area. But the better ones are not cheap - that's impossible here where land is so expensive. Nonprofits run the best housing/care alternatives. So we use LTC insurance as our risk mitigation because: 1) it will allow us to stay in our home as long as we want to, as we have the option for home health care, and 2) if one of us needs care the other will not bankrupted by the costs for a nice facility.

                                          These days most people do not keel over and die. Most live with gradually declining abilities and skills. My MIL is one of them, you wouldn't even notice her dementia unless you lived with her and watched her puzzled fumbling over small things she was once able to do. Fortunately she has the money to pay for home health care if needed, but she has some friends who are also elderly widows who struggle under such a financial burden.

                                          More important than a DNR is a Durable Healthcare power of attorney, a financial power of attorney, and POLST (Physician's Order for Life Sustaining Treatment) instructions (included in the most recent DHPoA forms since 2008).

                                          I hope we never have to make a claim against our LTC insurance. No different from our hope that we never have to make a claim against our earthquake insurance, which costs over 2x what the LTC insurance does, BTW! Can we go without either one? Sure, and we'd save a lot of money if we did. But if something bad does happen - and bad things do happen to good people, as we all know - we'd be out a very, very, very large amount of $$$ in the end. To us, the risk is worth mitigating. To others, it might not be. That's why each person has to honestly look at their numbers and figure out how great their risk is, and whether it's cost-effective to lessen it or not: never an easy decision, and very individual.

                                            • Re: Long term care insurance
                                              JaFoo

                                              Slow response, sorry.. I was in AZ caring for elderly parents.   

                                              It IS important to save for the help that a person will eventually need if they live long enough.  But I don’t think giving our $$  to a LTC insurance company is the only way to go.

                                               

                                              A family member of mine has a “good” LTC policy, with in-home and partial assisted living benefits.  But she has refused  to leave the family home. At 90, she lives in her home with a boomer son (who works constantly). She is not yet disabled enough to use her home health benefits.  She’s suffering from loneliness, chronic pain and inactivity.    She has mitigated her risk, but has what most would consider a poor quality of life.

                                               

                                              Elder co-housing/ retirement communes/ intentional communities are not about mitigating risk, but about:

                                              Living sustainably (minimal impact on the ecosystem)

                                              Reducing consumption through sharing

                                              Increasing quality of life through community involvement

                                              Working and playing hard and contributing to the betterment of the world

                                               

                                               A group of elders who live in a close community could go in together and hire health/support services that are better suited to their likes and needs (e.g. weekly on-site acupuncturist and vegetarian meals at the common house).  They might even figure out a way to barter for those services.

                                               

                                              It IS our choice to say, “no thanks” to the life prolonging treatments that extend our lives until we are chronic and disabled. But it doesn’t happen without planning.  My ducks are all in a row with documents AND family conversations.

                                                • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                  jkom51

                                                  >>At 90, she lives in her home with a boomer son (who works constantly). She is not yet disabled enough to use her home health benefits.  She’s suffering from loneliness, chronic pain and inactivity.    She has mitigated her risk, but has what most would consider a poor quality of life.At 90, she lives in her home with a boomer son (who works constantly). She is not yet disabled enough to use her home health benefits.  She’s suffering from loneliness, chronic pain and inactivity.    She has mitigated her risk, but has what most would consider a poor quality of life.>>

                                                  It would be interesting to hear what her son's viewpoint would be. On the Gardenweb Caregivers forum, there are so many people who feel caught in the "I would never put my parent in a nursing home as I promised to always take care of them" bind. They are exhausted, anxious, and resentful while feeling guilty about it.

                                                  I watched my aunt get ground down taking care of my father who was one of those "I'm not going into a nursing home to die" types. It gave me a lasting aversion to ever doing that to another person - least of all my spouse. We have planned for each of us to be able to continue on with life in the event one of us requires assisted living, home healthcare, or licensed facility care.

                                                  I don't belive that anyone has suggested that buying LTC insurance is a necessity for everyone. But it, like all other types of insurance, has a place in one's overall financial planning. To ignore one important aspect of a holistic view on financial planning is to defeat the entire process.

                                                  Amongst our peers and younger friends we have often mentioned the idea of community living, in a compound where we could all be together. However, it is just not realistic. Despite everyone being employed and working hard, none of us are in any position to afford to finance a group compound. It will not happen, despite our yearnings. Most Boomers are an independent lot who don't really want to live with others - nearby is good, next door is not always so great.

                                                  Here in CA community involvement is like 'herding cats' - you should see the indignant entries about the cost of installing a stoplight at a local intersection that has seen several bad accidents, in our neighborhood listserv. Everybody wants it, nobody wants to pay for it. Where we live, what works is to have the money to pay for what we need and most of what we want, without having to write grant applications or monitor fractious budget meetings to get things done.

                                                  The simple fact is, most of us don't play well with one another, when it comes to the details of everyday, minute-by-minute, life. And I've found that those who like to "run with scissors" are not people willing to compromise with those of us who are more cautious.

                                                  I have noticed my 82-yr old MIL is much more dependent upon the 'friendly face' of local neighborhood vendors and storeclerks than we are. It gives her that 'warm and fuzzy' small town feeling she seems to need. We are more like other Boomers: our relationships are formed mostly by work, spread across many companies. We don't do a lot of MySpace or Facebook (unless one has a business, then it's a necessity to do both), instead preferring LinkedIn or blogging.

                                                  What you are describing about shared services does exist in some areas. This is from a Sept 25, 2009 NYTimes column: ""A number of NORCs (naturally occurring retirement community) do offer this kind of help. Twenty-five states have NORC supportive service programs, according to the queen of NORCs, Fredda Vladeck, who runs the United Hospital Fund’s Aging in Place Initiative. New York leads the list with 54 NORC programs operating in high-rises, garden apartment complexes and neighborhoods of single-family homes; Indiana comes in second. The common mission of the programs, Ms. Vladeck said, is “transforming communities into good places to grow old.”"

                                                  Although it may sound so practical as to be a no-brainer, it takes a great deal of time and energy to work this into a national program with assured government funding. And in fact, I doubt it would fly with any of the many headline-grabbing politicos who are rushing aboard things like the Tea Party movement. Who's going to vote for spending more money on a new government program even though it's both a more humane use of funds and will possibly (but isn't guaranteed) save money? I doubt it's going to get any support from either of the Republican candidates currently vying to be the pick for CA state governor, for instance, although it should!

                                                  I'd love to think that in 10-20 yrs, when my spouse and I need to simplify our life, that NORCs will be more widely available to help people remain in their homes. We still would probably prefer to move into a retirement community, as it seems the best option for us. The advantage of having LTC insurance is that it gives us an entree into certain senior housing places that would otherwise be just 'out of reach' otherwise.

                                                  Frankly, there is nothing sadder than clinging to an illusion. I confess to having a prejudice against the whole "family home" idea. To me memories are internal, not a function of four walls, ceiling and floor. Yes, it is common - my MIL still yearns for her old home where she lived for 38 yrs with her long-dead DH - but had we allowed her to continue living there, it was a simple fact she could not afford to maintain the house properly nor afford any home help if anything happened to her (she has severe osteoporosis and the house was inaccessible except by steep concrete stairs).

                                                  It took us years to convince her we didn't want to inherit her home, we had our own and are perfectly happy with it. When the time is right we will give it up without sentimentality - it is a material possession, an asset if you're lucky. It is nothing to cherish or revere; just a bunch of wood, nails, stucco/plaster and glass.

                                                  Once the family has moved out, the memories are also gone...which is as it should be. The new owners will make their own memories, equally as precious and equally as ephemeral.

                                                    • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                      LSPotter

                                                      Thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts together in a succinct manner. I too have purchased LTC insurance about 15 years ago, or more. I want to be ready should something happen and not have to go to my only son for his help. You are so right in saying LTC insurance is part of the overall financial retirement planning.

                                                      Ethelle Lord

                                                      • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                        James139

                                                        The devil comes upon us suddenly, with no warning.  If we knew the thief

                                                        was going to rob us at midnight, we would have stayed awake.  But we

                                                        dont know the day or the hour that we will be caught.  That the stoke will

                                                        come, and the vital much-beloved spouse we had planned to travel with,

                                                        to dance with, to walk and talk with, will become overnight a mute confused

                                                        paraplegic in a wheelchair, incontinent, in pain, and on oxygen.  Medicare

                                                        only lasts 100 days for nursing home care.  People can live as husks for decades.

                                                          I want the  insurance for myself now.  It is too late for my spouse.

                                                          • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                            jkom51

                                                            I remember having a conversation with my FIL one evening. He proudly reported that he had canceled his $50,000 life insurance policy, because "he had never used it."

                                                            I was aghast, and no doubt gave him an open-mouthed stare for several moments. Then I blurted out, "You have no intention of ever dying?!?"

                                                            Two years later he suffered a major heart attack. Medical science being what it is, he lived another 10 yrs in gradually declining health.Towards the end, he couldn't bend over to tie his shoes without fainting. All their plans for retirement went out the window; he never again went fishing and they stopped traveling except for local drives.

                                                            Fortunately their house had appreciated in the RE boom and we convinced my MIL to sell before the market sank. She was house-rich but cash-poor, without sufficient funds to finance an extreme old age, which she is likely to achieve as she's quite healthy and genetically favored. If not for that, she would have desperately needed that insurance money to add to her modest cash assets.

                                                            Six years ago we were lucky I was driving the car to work when my DH suffered his stroke at age 50. When I realized what was happening to him I drove like the dickens through rush hour traffic to reach emergency, which is only 15 min from our house anyway (why I love to live in the city, LOL). His stroke was haemorrhagic, meaning they couldn't really do anything for him except lower his BP and watch him for 17 hours in intensive care.

                                                            He has recovered 95% - most people can't tell he ever had a stroke, let alone a serious one - but it showed us that you can never tell, as James139 so beautifully points out, when bad things are going to happen to good people. Being unprepared can be a terrible blow to someone who is already grieving and struggling to carry on.

                                                    • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                      Seekeranne
                                                      http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-26-aging26_ST_N.htm

                                                      From USAToday: 'Villages' let elderly grow old at home

                                                      Not sure I have given enough clues to get to the article.  Friends of mine are exploring this concept - staying in your own home, but working with other seniors to help each other out in a more formal way.  I am in my own eldercare conundrum with my 91 year old father - getting me down as my siblings are all still working and live a minimum of 3.5 hours from us.  Dad is in his own home, two doors down the street from me,  declining steadily, has part-time caregivers, and insists on staying in his home.  He took out a LTC policy with Conseco to help paying for home care, but even when we had registered nurses coming in - two a day - for Mom, Conseco had technical restrictions and paid nothing for her home care.   Dad bore all the cost.  Mom lived 6 months after falling and breaking her pelvis, pretty much bedridden and at the end too weak to talk or turn or even adjust her bed covers.

                                                      I declared then I was going to take up smoking and drinking, but I don't really like either but I do love vegetables.   All my relatives on Dad's side live well into their 90's - a few broke 100.  LTC insurance is not affordable with our pension.  Period.  Thanks to privatized IRA's (read: oppose privatization of Medicare and Social Security though I think many of us could do some kind of Medicare copays) and free fall of the value of our house I am looking for native plant options.  Considered hypothermia.  I love life though and am afraid by the time I really want to escape I won't be physically or mentally capable of it.  Right now life is a mazurka - too busy to be a waltz.  I am very healthy for 68 and enjoying every day.  I think a lot about the last 10 years of my life from 85 - 95 or thereabouts and am glad to join the discussion about how to handle it.
                                                        • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                          I have taken out catastrophic insurance from my union.  This seem like an affordable (for me) option versus LTC .  Does anyone know if this is a goodviable alternative?
                                                            • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                              jkom51

                                                              Whether catastrophic insurance is worthwhile depends upon the terms and limitations of the policy. I'd be surprised if it didn't have a dollar cap on how much is paid out, and limitations on what the policy will pay for.

                                                              It's doubtful it pays for home healthcare, which is the fastest-growing segment of healthcare services.

                                                                • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                  JerryD
                                                                  These policies should be required to offer standard benefits in the manner that Medicare supplemental plans do - Plan A, B, ...., J. This way one could compare policies from various companies on the basis of cost, reputation, extra benefits thrown in, etc. The current approach requires you to be a lawyer and to create a comparison between apples and oranges. Not many of us can be thorough enough to succeed at that approach.

                                                                • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                  Don49
                                                                  Long term care is what does. It provides care that is not necessarily health but ability related for a certain amount per day for  x days with a cap. There can be an inflation rider that increases the daily rate by some amount or % every year.

                                                                  The chances that you will both is probably about equal.  The statistics are that while assisted or skilled care can be expensive most people are in LTC for a short period of time.  Catastrophic is health insurance that kicks in after a certain amount of deductible has been paid and also has a cap but it may have other provisions. 

                                                                  I would talk to your union, HR  or a trusted friend to recommend a financial advisor who can explain the difference to you.  Don't buy anthing immediately but the younger you are the cheaper LTC is.

                                                                   
                                                                    • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                      proff43
                                                                      I am 67 and retiring this year. I hae not had long term care insurance. I don't anticipate needing it for a long time. (good genes)  The premiums are very large initially. Is there any reason to get the insurance rather than just creating an investment strategy to cover needs- at a rate less that the insurance premium?
                                                                        • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                          JerryD
                                                                          We have considered long term care insurance several times. Each time we conclude that it isn't the cost today but the uncertainty of the cost in the future when we are stuck with it that worries us. A recent article on large across the board cost increases for this coverage validate this concern. Another concern is that there is no standard policy choices like in Medicare where you can "know" the exact coverage and make a decision on cost and provider reputation. We have also been frugal and manage money pretty well and are (at least at this stage) good at managing complex situations, so we are favoring managing any such costs ourselves.

                                                                          Bottom line is always - NO!
                                                                            • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                              proff43
                                                                              that is where I keep ending up. I just did the calculations and my plan does better then theirs if I don't need it in the next 5 years.  I don't anticipate any need.
                                                                                • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                                  jkom51

                                                                                  Our bottom line was YES.

                                                                                  Based on our financial situation, morbidity and mortality risks, family situation (no kids, few relatives nearby and all of them working, we determined that the disability of one would impoverish the other spouse. Nursing homes now run 80K/yr for well run, nicer facilities. At home care, which is not covered by Medicare, is the fastest growing area of healthcare costs.  Medicaid is being gutted by bankrupt states like ours, and can't be depended upon to cover such costs. A licensed, bonded, home healrthcare agency charges $300/day for 8 hrs of care - an enormous sum for the average 2-6 month recuperation from a broken leg or hip replacement, for example.

                                                                                  It is wonderful to able to predict ill health, injury, and accident to yourself, but I'm not a success at that. We use LTC insurance to mitigate our risk of financial devastation. Over 25% of all seniors who file for bankruptcy do so because of medical costs - and that INCLUDES people with Medicare and Medicaid resources.

                                                                                  Unlike most people, we got advice to pursue LTC as soon as possible. We got it in our late 40's for very little. The program is state-sponsored and extremely good, with all the protections possible.

                                                                                  Not only could we not afford and not qualify for the LTC nowadays, the ten years we have paid premiums on both policies, do not even total what 5 months in a good nursing home would cost for one of us.

                                                                                  We hope we never need to make a claim. But we've spent more on homeowners and earthquake insurance, than what our LTC costs us. Our house may never fall down in an earthquake, but it's a sure bet we're going to grow old.

                                                                                   

                                                                                    • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                                      JerryD
                                                                                      It's a very tough decision with terrible consequences. I get this feeling that few of us will be happy with our decision no matter what we decide. All we can do is make our individual decisions and keep our fingers crossed.

                                                                                      I will say that it depends very much on where you live on the costs of home care. My Mom broke a hip at an advanced age and required care. Fortunately she had some funds from her sister who passed. She continued to need care a few days a week for years. The cost where she lived for nice ladies that were more like daughters wasn't too bad. Not a good living for the care providers but manageable for Mom.

                                                                                      One has to do the numbers as best you can and go with it.
                                                                                      • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                                        JRR
                                                                                        Your best long-term care insurance, friends, is eating healthy, keeping fit and staying away from hospitals!  No long-term care insurance is worth the cost.  Live well while you can afford to - and have a back-up plan ready when you can no longer afford to live well!   
                                                                                          • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                                            jkom51

                                                                                            To plan for an old age the way you suggest is to bury your head in the sands. Sorry, but my MIL lives with us and we deal with that kind of attitude every day.

                                                                                            All you end up with is being pathetically underprepared and overwhelmed both emotionally and financially. She has the money (we made sure of that), but dementia is destroying her ability to deal with even her daily checking.

                                                                                            Unlike you, we HAVE done the financial calculations and have found LTC insurance is our best chance of mitigating extreme financial risk. No one ever intends to become disabled or hit by a car or fall on concrete or develop dementia - but guess what? Life happens, and what you plan for is the worst, not crossing-your-fingers-hope-for-the-best.

                                                                                            We would rather be pleasantly surprised by having sufficient protection, instead of pretending to be Pollyanna and "if we don't think about it, it won't happen."

                                                                                            Having LTC insurance means we CAN afford to live well, because we don't have to keep a huge reserve of funds to pay for expensive care for one or both of us. And because we did buy it when we were younger, the few premium increases that have happened are only modest price increases annually - well under what buying protection at age 60 or 65 would cost.

                                                                                            I wish you and others - like my family members, who were offered by our carrier the chance to purchase LTC protection but didn't - the best of luck in the future as you age. Because all three of my siblings would now dearly love to purchase LTC, but being fifteen years older than when we first offered the chance, NONE of them can qualify medically any more for Preferred rates.

                                                                                            What would have been affordable is now out of reach. They are in their 60's and realizing what they face, having seen older relatives and friends struggle with LTC issues. They are terrified when they think about paying for LTC on their own, realizing that with the huge state budget cutbacks, there are fewer and fewer public aid resources.

                                                                                            They are worried, and we are not. That's what we pay premiums for, and it's well worth it. LTC costs us less than the earthquake insurance rider on our homeowners policy, and is infinitely more important.

                                                                                              • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                                                JerryD
                                                                                                jkom, it's true that one can and should do the financial calculations and what-ifs when making the LTC decision. However, it is NOT possible to determine the risk that the carrier will make the coverage so expensive that one cannot afford to keep it. Unfortunately, this development may occur after one has invested a large sum of money in the coverage and the agony of losing it. 
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                If you think this unlikely, I believe that I have pointed out in previous posts here that this has happened with many large carriers just recently and another large carrier has chosen to stop selling LTC. Who would want a carrier that no longer offers the coverage?
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                The LTC decision is not clear nor easy. We have chosen to NOT bet that the carriers will continue to provide affordable and consistent care.
                                                                        • Re: Long term care insurance
                                                                          sschein
                                                                          I highly recommend a Google search for the following article :
                                                                          FPA Journal - The Financial Desirability  of Long Term Care Insurance Versus Self-Insurance

                                                                          Everyone's situation is different, of course, but this convinced me that for my wife and me long term care insurance was not the optimal choice. What we did choose to use was a catastrophic  expense policy, sponsored by my alma mater, which had guaranteed acceptance, reasonable rates, and covers up to $1,000,000 after any health related expenses of $25,000 from the same cause. In looking at the New York State - private long term care policy, it seemed that they protected your assets after you had spent all of them, preserving only $250,000, which may be in the value of your home. 

                                                                          NOTE: I teach philosophy, not finance or insurance. Check out everything yourself. I'm satisfied I made the right decision, but you may discover I was wrong.